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from nbc news from nbc news in washington, the world's longest-running television program, this is "meet the press," with david gregory. >> good sunday morning, time is nearly up before we go over the so-called fiscal cliff. senate leaders spent the weekend working on a last-ditch deal and the house comes back today for a rare sunday night session. yesterday afternoon, in an exclusive interview, president obama sat down with me in the blue room of the white house. to discuss the way forward and his priorities for a second term. >> mr. president, welcome back to "meet the press." >> great to be here, thank you. >> the obvious question -- are we going over the fiscal cliff? >> well, i think we're going to find out in the next 48 hours what congress decides to do. but i think it's important for the american people to understand exactly what this fiscal cliff is. because it's actually not that complicated. the tax cuts that were introduced in 2001, 2003, 2010, those were extended and they're all about to expire at the end of the year.

so on midnight, december 31st, if congress doesn't act, then everybody's taxes go up. and for the average family, that could mean a loss of $2,000 in income. for the entire economy, that means consumers have a lot less money to make purchases, which means businesses are going to have a lot less customers, which means that they're less likely to hire and the whole economy could slow down at a time when the economy is starting to pick up and we're seeing signs of recovery in housing and employment numbers improving. so what congress needs to do first and foremost, is to prevent taxes from going up for the vast majority of americans. and this was a major topic of discussion throughout the campaign. what i said was, that we should keep taxes where they are for 98% of americans. 97% of small businesses. but if we're serious about deficit reduction, we should make sure that the wealthy are paying a little bit more and

combine that with spending cuts to reduce our deficit and put our economy on a long-term trajectory of growth. we have been talking to the republicans ever since the election was over. they have had trouble saying yes to a number of repeated offers. yesterday i had another meeting with the leadership and i suggested to them if they can't do a comprehensive package of smart deficit reduction, let's at minimum make sure that people's taxes don't go up. and that two million people don't lose their unemployment insurance. and i was modestly optimistic yesterday. but we don't yet see an agreement and now the pressure is on congress to produce. if they don't, what i've said is that in the senate, we should go ahead and introduce legislation that would make sure that middle classes taxes stay where they are and there should be an up or down vote. i think there's a majority

support for making sure that the middle class families are held harmless. >> if you go over the cliff, what's the impact in the markets? which have been pretty confident until now that a deal would get done. >> it's hard to speculate on the markets. but obviously i think business and investors are going to feel more negative about the economy next year. if you look at projections of 2013, people generally felt that the economy would continue to grow, unemployment would continue to tick down, housing would continue to improve. but what's been holding us back is the dysfunction here in washington. and if people start seeing that on january 1st, this problem still hasn't been solved, that we haven't seen the kind of deficit reduction that we could have had, had the republicans been willing to take the deal that i gave them, if they say that people's taxes have gone up, which means consumer spending is going to be depressed, then obviously that's going to have an adverse reaction on the markets.

>> what about automatic spending cuts? those take effect january 1st as well. do they have to be part of this deal? you've got half of those cuts in defense alone. >> well, the other part of the fiscal cliff is congress agreed that they would cut an additional $1.2 trillion in spending. they put a committee together to try to come up with those numbers. they didn't figure out how to do it. and so what we now have is a situation where these automatic spending cuts go into place. now if we have raised some revenue by the wealthy paying a little bit more, that would be sufficient to turn off what's called the sequester, these automatic spending cuts. and that also would have a better outcome for our economy long-term. but you know, so far at least, congress has not been able to get this stuff done. not because democrats in congress don't want to go ahead and cooperate. but because i think it's been very hard for speaker boehner

and republican leader mcconnell to accept the fact that taxes on the wealthiest americans should go up a little bit. as part of an overall deficit reduction package. >> you talk about a dysfunction in washington. you signed this legislation setting up the fiscal cliff 17 months ago. how accountable are you for the fact that washington can't get anything done and we're at this deadline again? >> well i have to tell you, david, if you look at my track record over the last two years, i cut spending by over $1 trillion in 2011. i campaigned on the promise of being willing to reduce the deficit in a serious way, in a balanced approach of spending cuts and tax increases on the wealthy, while keeping middle-class taxes low. i put forward a very specific proposal to do that. i negotiated with speaker boehner in good faith and moved more than halfway in order to achieve a grand bargain. i offered over $1 trillion in additional spending cuts.

so that we would have $2 of spending cuts for every $1 of increased revenue. i think anybody objectively who has looked at this would say that you know, we have put forward not only a sensible deal, but one that has the support of the majority of the american people, including close to half of republicans. >> when they say leadership falls on you, mr. president, you don't have a role here in breaking this impasse? you've had a tough go with congress. >> david, you know, at a certain point, if folks can't say yes to good offers, then i also have an obligation to the american people to make sure that the entire burden of deficit reduction doesn't fall on seniors, who are relying on medicare. i also have an obligation to make sure that families who rely on medicaid to take care of a disabled child, aren't carrying this burden entirely. i also have an obligation to middle class families to make sure that they're not paying higher taxes when millionaires

and billionaires are not having to pay higher taxes. there is a basic fairness that is at stake in this whole thing that the american people understand and they listen to an entire year's debate about it. they made a clear decision about the approach they prefer which is a balanced, responsible package. they rejected the notion that the economy grows best from the top down. they believe that the economy grows best from the middle class out. and at a certain point, you know, it is very important for republicans in congress to be willing to say we understand we're not going to get 100%, we're willing to compromise in a serious way in order to solve problems as opposed to be worrying about the next election. >> you said republicans have a hard time saying yes, particularly to you. >> yes. >> what is it about you, mr. president, that you think is so hard to say yes to? >> that's something you're probably going to have to ask them. because you know, david, you

follow this stuff pretty carefully. the offers that i've made to them have been so fair that a lot of democrats get mad at me. i offered to make some significant changes to our entitlement programs in order to reduce the deficit. i offered to not only $1 trillion in, over $1 trillion in spending cuts over the next ten years, but these changes would result in even more savings in the next ten years. and would solve our deficit problem for a decade. they said that their biggest priority is making sure we deal with the deficit in a serious way. but the way that they're behaving is their only priority is making sure that the tax breaks for the wealthiest americans are protected. that seems to be their only overriding, unifying theme. and at some point, think what's going to be important is that they listen to the american people.

now, the -- i think that over the next 48 hours my hope is that people recognize that regardless of partisan differences, our top priority has to be to make sure that taxes on middle class families do not go up. that would hurt our economy badly. we can get that done. democrats and republicans both say they don't want taxes to go up on middle class families. that's something we all agree on. if we can get that done, that takes a big bite out of the fiscal cliff. it avoids the worst outcomes. and we're then going to have some tough negotiations in terms of how we continue to reduce the deficit, grow the economy and create jobs. >> if the fight comes back -- i want to ask you specifically about entitlements, medicare and social security, are you prepared in the first year of your second term, to significantly reform those two programs, to go beyond the cuts you've suggested to benefits in

medicare, which your own debt commission suggested you'd have to do if you were really going to shore up medicare at least. are you prepared to do that in your first year of the second term? >> what i've said is i'm prepared to do everything i can to make sure that medicare and social security are there not just for this generation but for future generations. >> you've got to talk tough to seniors. >> i have, one of the proposals we've made is something called chain cpi. which sounds technical, but basically makes an adjustment in terms of how inflation is calculated for social security. highly unpopular among democrats. not something supported by aarp, but in pursuit of strengthening social security for the long-term, i'm willing to make those decisions. what i'm not willing to do is to have the entire burden of deficit reduction rest on the shoulders of seniors making students pay higher student loan rates, ruining our capacity to invest in things like basic research that help our economy

grow. those are the things that i'm not willing to do. and so -- >> did you commit to that first year of your second term, getting significant reform done. telling congress we've got to do it. >> david, i want to be very clear, you are not only going to cut your way to prosperity. one of the fallacies, i think that has been promoted, is this notion that deficit reduction is only a matter of cutting programs that are really important to seniors, students, and so forth. that has to be part of the mix. but what i ran on, and what the american people elected me to do, was to put forward a balanced approach. to make sure that there are shared sacrifices. that everybody is doing a little bit more. and it is very difficult for me to say to a senior citizen, or a student, or a mom with a disabled kid, you are going to have to do with less. but we're not going to ask

millionaires or billionaires to do more. that's not something, that's not an approach that the american people think is right and by the way, historically, that's not how we grow an economy. we grow an economy when folks in the middle, folks who are striving to get in the middle class, when they do well. >> i'm asking you about timeframe. because as you well know, as a second-term president, your political capital, is limited. so what is your single priority of the second term? what is the equivalent to health care? >> well there are a couple of things we need to get done. i've said that fixing our broken immigration system is a top priority. i will introduce legislation in the first year to get that done. i think we have talked about it long enough. we know how we can fix it. we can do it in a comprehensive way that the american people support. that's something we should get done. the second thing that we've got to do is to stabilize the economy and make sure it's growing. part of that is deficit reduction. part of it is also making sure

that we're investing for example in rebuilding our infrastructure. which is broken. and if we are putting people back to work rebuilding our roads, our bridges, our schools -- in part paying for it by some of these broader long-term deficit reduction measures that need to take place, that will grow the economy at the same time as we're also setting our path for long-term fiscal stability. number three, we've got a huge opportunity around energy. we are producing more energy and america can become an energy exporter. how do we do that in a way that also deals with some of the environmental challenges that we have at the same time? so that's going to be a third thing. but the most immediate thing i've got to do, starting on january 1st, if congress doesn't act before the end of the year, is make sure that taxes are not going up on middle class families. and because it is going to be very hard for the economy to sustain its current growth trends if suddenly we have a

huge bite taken out of the average americans' paycheck. >> those are four huge things, you didn't mention after newtown, although i know you're thinking about it, new gun regulations. mayor bloomberg of new york told me couple of weeks ago on this program, that ought to be your number one agenda item. you know how hard this is. do you have the stomach for the political fight for new gun control laws? >> you know, david, i think anybody who was up in newtown, who talked to the parents, who talked to the families, understands that something fundamental in america has to change. and all of us have to do some soul-searching, including me as president. that we allow a situation in which 20 precious, small children are getting gunned down in a classroom. and i've been very clear that an assault rifle ban, banning these

high-capacity clips, background checks, that they're a set of issues that i have historically supported and will continue to support. >> can you get it done? >> so the question is, are we going to be able to have a national conversation and move something through congress? i'd like to get it done in the first year. i will put forward a very specific proposal based on the recommendations that joe biden's task force is putting together as we speak. and so this is not something that i will be putting off. but -- >> the nra says it's not going to work. it didn't work before, it's not going to work now. >> my response is, something has to work. and you know, it is not enough for us to say -- this is too hard, so we're not going to try. so what i intend to do is i will call all the stakeholders together. i will meet with republicans, i will meet with democrats. i will talk to anybody. i think there are a vast majority of responsible gun

owners out there who recognize that we can't have a situation in which somebody with severe psychological problems is able to get the kind of high-capacity weapons that this individual in newtown obtained. and gunned down our kids. and yes, it's going to be hard. >> should we have an armed guard at every school in the country? that's what the nra believes. they told me last week, that could work. >> i'm not going to prejudge the recommendations that are given to me. i am skeptical that the only answer is putting more guns in schools. and i think the vast majority of the american people are skeptical that that somehow is going to solve our problem. look -- here's the bottom line -- we're not going to get this done unless the american people decide it's important. so this is not going to be simply a matter of me spending political capital. one of the things that you

learn, having now been in this office for four years, is you know, the old adage of abraham lincoln's, is that with public opinion there's nothing you can't do. and without public opinion, there's very little you can get done in this town. so i'm going to be putting forward a package. and i'm going to be putting my full weight behind it. and i'm going to be making an argument to the american people about why this is important and why we have to do everything we can to make sure that something like what happened at sandy hook elementary does not happen again. but ultimately, the way this is going to happen is because the american people say -- that's right. we are willing to make different choices for the country and we support those in congress who are willing to take those actions. and will there be resistance? absolutely there will be resistance. the question then becomes whether we are actually shook up enough by what happened here. that it does not just become

another one of these routine episodes where it gets a lot of attention for a couple of weeks and then it drifts away. it certainly won't feel like that to me. this is something that -- you know, that was the worst day of my presidency. and it's not something that i want to see repeated. >> it hit close to home. >> absolutely. >> let me ask you about a couple of foreign policy notes. after the attack in benghazi, is there a need for more accountability so that this doesn't happen again? and do you know who was behind the attack at this point? >> two points. number one, i think that tom pickering and mike mullen who headed up the review board did a very thorough job in identifying what were some severe problems in diplomatic security. and they provided us with a series of recommendations. many of them were already starting to be implemented. secretary clinton has indicated that she is going to implement

all of them. what i've, my message to the state department has been very simple. and that is, we're going to solve this. we're not going to be defensive about it we're not going to pretend that this was not a problem. this was a huge problem. and we're going to implement every single recommendation that's been put forward. some individuals have been held accountable, inside of the state department. and what i've said is, is that we are going to fix this to make sure that this does not happen again. because these are folks that i send into the field. we understand that there are dangers involved, but you know, when you read the report and it confirms what we had already seen based on some of our internal reviews, there was just some sloppiness, not intentional, in terms of how we secure embassies in areas where you essentially don't have governments that have a lot of capacity to protect those embassies. so we're doing a thorough review, not only will we

implement all the recommendations that were made, but we'll try to do more than that. with respect to who carried it out, that's an ongoing investigation. the fbi has sent individuals to libya repeatedly. we have some very good leads. but this is not something that you know, i'm going to be at liberty to talk about right now. >> in politics, in the back and forth in this, do you feel like you let your friend, susan rice, hang out there to dry a little bit. >> first of all, i think i was very clear throughout, that susan has been an outstanding u.n. ambassador for the united states. she appeared on a number of television shows, reporting what she and we understood to be the best information at the time. this was a politically motivated attack on her. i mean of all the people in my national security team, she probably had the least to do

with anything that happened in benghazi. why she was targeted individually for the kind of attacks that she was subjected to, is, it was puzzling to me. and i was very clear in the days after those attacks, that they weren't acceptable. so you know, the good thing is that i think she will continue to serve at the u.n. and do an outstanding job. and i think that most americans recognize that these were largely politically motivated attacks as opposed to being justified. >> you have another series of cabinet choices to make. former senator chuck hagel has come under criticism for some comments he's made, including about a former ambassador nominee during the clinton years. that being gay was an inhibiting factor to being gay to do an effective job. is there anything about chuck hagel's record or statements that disqualifying to you,

should you nominate him to run in the defense department? >> first of all i haven't made a decision about who to nominate. my number one criteria will be who's going to do the best job in helping to secure america. >> anything to disqualify him? >> not that i see. i served with chuck hagel. i know him. he's a patriot, he's a someone who has done extraordinary work in the united states senate and somebody who served this country with valor in vietnam. and is somebody who is currently serving on my intelligence advisory board and doing an outstanding job. so i haven't made a decision on this. with respect to the particular comment that you quoted, he apologized for it. and i think it's a testimony to what has been a positive change over the last decade in terms of people's attitudes about gays and lesbians serving our country. and that's something that i'm very proud to have led. and i think that anybody who

serves in my administration understands my attitude and position on those issues. >> mr. president, as you look forward to a second term, you think about your legacy. you think about your goals. how frustrated are you at how hard it appears to be to get some of these things done? very difficult relationship with congress, people come up to me all the time and say, don't they realize all of them, the president, republicans, democrats, how frustrated we all are? >> well i think we're all frustrated. the only thing i would caution against, david, is, i think this notion of well both sides are just kind of unwilling to cooperate. that's just not true. i mean if you look at the facts, what you have is a situation here where the democratic party, warts and all and certainly me, warts and all, have consistently done our best to try to put country first. and to try to work with everybody involved to make sure that we've got an economy that grows, make sure that it works for everybody.

make sure that we're keeping the country safe. and that the democratic party still have some knee-jerk ideological positions, are there some folks in the democratic party who sometimes aren't reasonable? of course, that's true of every political party. but generally, if you look at how i've tried to govern over the last four years and how i'll continue to try to govern, i'm not driven by some ideological agenda. i'm a pretty practical guy. and i just want to make sure that things work. and one of the nice things about never having another election again, i will never campaign again, is you know, i think you can rest assured that all i care about is making sure that i leave behind an america that is stronger, more prosperous, you know, more stable, more secure than it was when i came into office. and that's going to continue to drive me.

and i think that the issue that we're dealing with right now in the fiscal cliff is a prime example of it. what i'm arguing for are maintaining tax cuts for 98% of americans. i don't think anybody would consider that some liberal left-wing agenda. that used to be considered a pretty mainstream republican agenda. and it's something that we can accomplish today. if we simply allow for a vote in the senate and in the house to get it done. the fact that it's not happening is an indication of you know, how far certain factions inside the republican party have gone where they, they can't even accept what used to be considered centrist mainstream positions on these issues. now i remain optimistic, i'm

just a congenital optimist, that eventually people kind of see the light. winston churchill used to say that we americans, we try every other option before we finally do the right thing. after everything else is exhausted, we eventually do the right thing. and i think that that's true for congress as well. and i think it's also important for americans to remember that politic has always been messy. people have been asking me a lot about the film "lincoln" and you know -- >> is this your "lincoln" moment? >> well no, look. a, i never compared myself to lincoln and b, the obviously the magnitude of the issues are quite different from civil war and slavery. the point is that democracy has always been messy. we're a big, diverse country. that is constantly sort of arguing about all kinds of stuff. but eventually we do the right thing. and in this situation, i'm confident that one of two things are going to happen when it comes to the fiscal cliff.

number one, we're going to see an agreement in the next 48 hours in which case, middle class taxes will not go up. if that doesn't happen, then democrats in the senate will put a bill on the floor of the senate, and republicans will have to decide if they're going to block it. which will mean that middle class taxes do go up. i don't think they would want to do that politically. but they may end up doing it. and if all else fails, if republicans do in fact decide to block it, so that taxes on middle class families do in fact go up, on january 1st, then we'll come back with a new congress on january 4th, and the first bill that will be introduced on the floor will be to cut taxes on middle class families. and you know, i don't think the average person is going to say, gosh, you know, that's a really partisan agenda on the part of either the president or democrats in congress. i think people will say, that makes sense. because that's what the economy needs right now. so one way or another, we'll get

through this. do i wish that things were more orderly in washington and rational and people listened to the best arguments and compromised and operated in a more thoughtful and organized fashion? absolutely. but when you look at history, that's, that's been the exception rather than the norm. >> my interview with president obama. coming up, reaction to the interview. and what it tells us about what his second term will look like. joining me, nbc's tom brokaw, presidential historian, doris kearns goodwin, executive editor at random house, jon meacham. david brooks of the "new york times," and our political director and chief white house correspondent, chuck todd, all coming up next. [ male announcer ] it's that time of year again.

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coming up reaction to my roundtable, you just heard the president lay out his big agenda items for the second term, immigration, economy, energy, middle class tax cuts, not to mention gun control. can he realistically get any of them done given washington's track record of dysfunction? of them done given washington's [ male announcer ] zzzquil™ sleep-aid. it's not for colds. it's not for pain. it's just for sleep. because sleep is a beautiful thing™. ♪ zzzquil™. the non-habit forming sleep-aid from the makers of nyquil®.

i'm confi i'm confident that one of two things are going to happen when it comes to the fiscal cliff. number one, we're going to see an agreement in the next 48

hours, in which case middle class taxes will not go up. if that doesn't happen, then democrats in the senate will put a bill on the floor of the senate, and republicans will have to decide if they are going to block it, which will mean that middle class taxes do go up. i don't think they will want to do that politically, but they may end up doing it. >> that of course from our interview just moments ago with the president. i sat down with him yesterday at the white house. putting the onus squarely on congressional leaders to either do a comprehensive package now or a short-term solution to prevent middle class taxes from going up. joining me now, nbc news political director and chief white house correspondent chuck todd. nbc news special correspondent tom brokaw. the author of "thomas jefferson:the art of power" jon meacham. and presidential historian and author of the lincoln biography "team of rivals" doris kearns goodwin. my big take away, the president is setting the tone here, putting them on notice that yes,

taxes are going to gun, and he's going to drive a hard bargainon a lot of different issues rather than try to bring them into the fold. he doesn't feel like compromise is going to work. >> let's just say that what is happening at the congress right now is pathetic. we are asking not to bankrupt our children. we have a dysfunctional process. i think most of the blame still has to go to the republicans. they have had a brain freeze since the election. they have no strategy. they don't know what they want, and they haven't decided what they want. but if i had to fault president obama, i would say sometimes he has governed like a visitor from a morally superior civilization. he comes in here, and he will not -- he'll talk with boehner. he won't talk with the other republicans. he hasn't built their trust. boehner actually made a pretty serious concession, $800 billion in tax revenues. probably willing to go up on rates. but the trust wasn't there to get that done. if the president wants to get stuff done over the next four years, it's got to be a lot more than making the intellectual concessions.

it's got to get to the place where republicans say, ok, we'll take a risk. this guy won't screw us. they don't feel that right now. >> chuck, just your reading of the immediate news that's going to be made over the course of today and tomorrow, again, what i think is significant, the president is saying we either get this deal now, or we'll go over the cliff. we'll come back right after the first of the year and try to get the tax cuts through again. but the republicans are going to be forced to be in a position that they'll have to say no because we'll put it on the floor. >> there didn't seem to be a sense of urgency. the president was laying it out, we might go over. this is how we're going to deal with it once we go over. we're not going to end up in the long-term raising taxes on everybody. but he seemed to be not making today do or die. not making the next 48 hours the big thick here. which will -- it will be interesting to see if that's how the republican leader, mitch mcconnell, who is the key here, does he sign off on a deal. if he signs off on a deal, something will happen.

does he read that and say, boy, we need to take this tax issue off the table. he is a big believer of this. take the tax issue -- give the president his tax hike on the rich now. fight him on everything else when taxes aren't part of the conversation. fight him on everything else in six weeks when the debt ceiling is hit or eight weeks, 12 weeks, whenever that fight happens, and do that. i do think that mcconnell -- that's where he wants to be. can he get there in the next 24 hours? that's what we don't know. >> tom brokaw? >> well, it seems to me that the middle class is going to have a date for the prom. everybody is talking about protecting the middle class here. so i think this deal will probably get done around the middle class tax cut. it's at what level. $400,000 or $250,000 or some other number. which is going to be critically important. a lot of people don't realize in a large urban and suburban areas of america, $250,000 doesn't make you rich. have you two kids in college at $60,000. if you're a boomer, you may have a dependent parent of some kind. spending another $20,000 or

$25,000 on that. you have to have a definition of what is the middle class. to david's point, i do really believe that the president doesn't work hard enough at bringing everybody into the white house and rolling up his sleeves, having him in the living quarters, getting them around the table and saying, how can we get this deal done? he didn't talk downstream about tax reform, for example. and i think it would have been helpful to him this morning to have said, look, we get this tax deal done, i'm here to help on medicare and social security reforms. we've got to address those. instead of just saying i'm going to protect the seniors who are there and the medicare and medicaid recipients. give a little something. show good faith about what needs to be done on deficit reduction and the entitlement programs. >> doris, republicans i have talked to on capitol hill in the last couple of days have said, the president meeting with all the congressional leaders, that the first time it's happened since november 16. this is not somebody who's been actively engaged in negotiating. he's basically saying yet again,

i won, we're going to get this through. but the president says, no, it's republicans who won't say yes to reasonable proposals. >> that may be the conclusion that he's drawn. we don't know what's going on. invitations put out, maybe not accepted. what was interesting to me about his talk with you is i think he learned from that first term where he was arguing to explaining things. he talked simply and conversationally in this thing. he repeated over and over again his own point, fairness, balance. he talked about middle class out rather from the bottom up. that seems to be a new phrase. and i think he's learned what theodore roosevelt learned, when you're speaking to the american people and want to make an argument, it has to be simple. i thought he spoke in a different tone today, more conversational, and that's something you learn from your first term, where he thought he had spoken too much over people's heads or too explanatory. >> jon meacham, the president's obvious irritation, chuck was just mentioning it before we

started, at the notion that it's a pox on both houses. >> right. >> and one of the president's top advisers is rather defensive on twitter saying it should bug every american because it's lazy journalism and punditry and has a real effect on our political system. well, here's the reality that even his advisers have to understand. the american people, republicans and democrats, do look at results or the lack thereof. so it's not lazy punditry when people are out there very frustrated with both ends of this. >> right. and i see the system as broken because as you say it doesn't produce a result, a desirable result. >> being right is not enough, even if you're the president. even if you believe you're right, it doesn't necessarily get a result. >> presidential politics is about wholesale and retail as we say in the trade. and so today, this morning, he was doing a wholesale sell. he was using the bully pulpit. talking to you, making an intellectual case and trying to say, i won. this is what you voted for. this is what we adjudicated in the election.

but on the retail side, as tom says, all evidence suggests he has not been the warmest and fuzziest of cajolers. and you have to do both. and you can't just be right on the idea. you do have to sell this. and even the greatest presidents, let's be clear, ronald reagan and bill clinton, they sold their initial deals in the first year. and it was close. it was one, two, three votes. it was very tight. but they did it, and they pushed and they pushed on both the wholesale and retail side. >> i don't think you can have the congressmen over too often. i think they should be there sleeping with you if you want them to be. >> well, that could have some people in trouble. >> i didn't quite mean that. >> you know, the civil war era, doris -- >> but i think he finally has made it sufficient at least that the inside game didn't work. >> but let's make sure we are about to come up on the most -- the least productive congress in history.

we have 218 bills this congress has passed. the lowest number since this has been tracked. the lowest number before that was 333. let's go through the highlights of this congress. no farm bill. by the way, the debacle we saw on the senate on the u.n. disability treaty right in front of bob dole. that was just a bizarre moment, if you will. this fiscal cliff. three budget standoffs. i mean, this congress has been uniquely atrocious. >> tom? >> the fact is the system is rigged. 75% of the congressmen come from gerrymandered districts in which they are bulletproof. they only play to one constituency. they don't go home and have a case. they have a choir back home. and that's a huge part of the problem here. there's another reality in this town today. we need a lighter moment here. a lot of folks as i was coming into the office today said they have to get it done by kickoff time tonight. >> that's right. >> it's a good thing nbc moved the kickoff to primetime.

it's very important. >> david, i think it's also important to go back to the president's argument, that, you know, you have to be able to say yes to something that's reasonable. conservatives have argued that he's effectively exposed big internal divisions in the republican party that they have yet to work out, which prevents them from getting to a reasonable place of compromise to then move on to fight other battles. >> well, boehner was close to a deal, but he couldn't sell not to the rank and file but the senior leadership on the deal because they thought they were giving away what they needed to do tax reform later on. but you have to sort of anticipate that. you have to know beyond boehner what the party wants. but in some sense, the republicans are being sham bollic and making fools of themselves. but in another sense, they are acting favorably or rationally to the structure they are in. we have the sensible country with the dysfunctional washington.

the reality is we have a country of people who want to bankrupt their children, spend money on themselves, and will punish any politician who prevents them from doing that. and therefore they will punish republicans if they cut entitlements. they will punish democrats if they cut entitlements. so what you saw today was the president shifting attention from debt reduction to tax cuts, which is the easy thing. i think the problem is centrally in country, and the politicians look like idiots because they are responding to horrible incentives. what does that mean? >> i'm british. >> ok. >> i thought i'd let it go the first time. i didn't know what it meant. tom, you interviewed the candidate obama in 2008. and you said -- you asked him then, would you get medicare and social security reform done in your first two years? and he said, tom, i don't know if i can do that. but certainly in the first term. i asked him to make a commitment for the first year of his second term, and he's not prepared to do that. this is the driver, david.

you recently linked to a weekly standard piece about you're going to run out of discretionary money to do the things the president wants to do if he doesn't address entitlement. >> they have to address it. and the president would help himself a lot if he were tougher on the aarp and said look, it's not about the people at the bottom for whom medicare is really a lifeline. it's about all of the people, including those of us around the table, who get the same benefits. members of our family who are working class. my brother had a great working class career working for the telephone company. but there's a big disparity between what i'm worth and he's worth but we get the same benefits at the end of the day. there's something wrong with that. and the fact of matter is we're all living longer as well. social security can go up if you give it some lead time to retire at 67 and probably 20 years from now to retire maybe at 70 because people are staying in the workplace longer. he ought to be able to raise those issues in a way that he can begin to sell them to the

idea of we have fundamental reforms we have to do, as david -- as david says, downstream. we are going to bankrupt our children and grandchildren. >> if they want this and mcconnell i think does. they demagogued medicare to their own success. a lot of them got into congress demagoguing medicare. but if they want this, they are going to, a, need a democratic president to sign the legislation. it can never -- the republican party can't have it where it's all one party that does social security and medicare. they have got to be willing to say, ok, if they want to do this, they'll have to give on something they don't like, maybe even higher taxes. and that's where the moment was there. they almost got this president to move on social security. almost got him to move on medicare reform. and they didn't take the deal. >> the reality at the end of the day, they are going to walk away with this without any spending restraint. we'll get a deal that will do nothing on deficits. and it's their own fault. >> i agree with that. >> let me bring up the gun issue. the president said he'll put his full weight behind his first

year gun control legislation. but the question stands, does he have the stomach for how difficult this will be politically? i'm not sure. >> i'm not either. you know, there's a great line in "tom sawyer" where he says an evangelist that came through town that was so good that even huck finn stayed saved until tuesday. i worry that our attention span on these things is so limited. you had to bring up the question of guns as the president was laying out his agenda. it is one of these cultural political issues where you have a ferociously well organized opposition, and a more diffuse common sense broader population. and i think that that is where the tension is. that also by the way is not -- the well organized interest plus the common sense diffusion is not just limited to guns. it's -- >> but, tom, talk more about guns. as you remember the assault

weapons ban in 1994, it passes the house by four votes. and that was a democratic house. >> and by the way, it had a lot of loopholes of it. i brought a copy of a magazine that i get called "shotgun news." almost the entire -- this is for people who own guns and are gun collectors and some are gun nuts. not all of them, obviously. but the fact is, it's all about what we call assault weapons. and there are lots of variations on it. this entire publication is dedicated to the idea that there are lots of new what they call platforms for ar 15s. and there are ways that you can change the barrel, you can change the stock, you can change the trigger mechanism. >> this is the gun used in newtown? >> yes. and the fact of the matter is everybody talks about it as if it's one weapon. it's not. it's a lot of variations on the same weapon. they always find a way around it. and there is no more in my judgment unified constituency in

america than the passionate gun owners. they are out there. and they believe -- so many of them believe the government is going to knock down their door and take their guns away. and i say if we get to that, we have a lot bigger problem than guns. we're in anarchy. >> there is a 92-page newsletter against assault weapons. >> yeah. >> we'll come back to this. i want to get a break in here. i was in kentucky over christmas and saw a bumper sticker that said, i am the nra and i vote. and they will on this issue. we'll get a quick break. we'll talk about the president's priorities for a second term and what's really possible. more with our roundtable after this. nah, i'm good. ♪ [ male announcer ] every time you say no to a cigarette, you celebrate a little win. nicoderm cq, the patch with time release smart control technology that acts fast and helps control cravings all day long. ♪

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fdr said i am like a cat. i know when to pounce and when to pull back. i think the fact that he did not mention gun control makes him understand that unless he can argue public sentiment to overcome the enormous special interest, that's going to be a much harder one. immigration right at the top. and that's the one where he can mobilize that base. it's the base that elected him. it will make it harder for republicans. if he were to get immigration, he starts on a successful platform, and then maybe move to the other ones. >> there is incentive for republicans to cooperate on immigration. >> the sad thing for fiscal cliff is we'll be stuck in trench warfare for another couple of years. make sure you do it with a bush type comprehensive package. then you break the trench warfare. you get some from column a and column b, and then maybe you can do the things you want to do. the second big issue, the same thing for a coalition is tax reform. >> but the question tom raises when we're talking about guns, there's a larger approach. does he have more of an

opportunity on gun control if there's a big mental health aspect to it, if there's more to it, tom? >> well, that's what i think. i think it has to be holistic. the fact of the matter is i'm not an assault weapon fan of any kind, but i know people who go out to the target ranges and feel strongly that they have a second amendment right to fire them off as many times as they want to with 30-round magazines in them. so sportsmen, people who have weapons for hunting deer or big game or birds as i do and other people, have to become part of this debate as well, and say, look, there have got to be limits of some kind. i have even talked to people who are gun owners saying, why couldn't you have a club where they actually own the assault weapons, and if you want to shoot it for target practice, you have to go to the licensed club, get the gun, shoot it and check it back in. >> that's all the more reason why he has to educate the country. he has to get out of the white house more. he should take a train and go

around the country and talk to people about all of these issues so you can mobilize public sentiment. as lincoln said, without it nothing can happen. and that's the goal of the second term. >> i think the gun question, though, is almost less they question of presidential leadership and cultural leadership from people like tom and like me. we are the only two gun owners here. but if you're a moderate, if you're a quail hunter or dove hunter, you have to get into this and say, look, assault weapons are not what this is about. as president clinton said, he had never known anyone that needed an assault weapon to kill a deer. and this is a case where if people, if this is not an organic movement from the country, it's not going to work. it can't come from top down. >> i want to inject the larger political point. we have mid term elections coming up in two years. he's talking about immigration. there's the trench warfare on

the budget and entitlements which could take a long time, and gun control if he wants to do that this year as well. >> well, you have to pick and choose. you have to be careful. if you pick on the one hand it could be tempting to go guns, because it needs the most political capital. it's going to be the hardest slog. it's the most work. but if you do it and fail, you're not going to get anything else fail. ask george bush when he did social security first. immigration will be relatively easy now. there will be some painful moments, but you have a republican party of which there is incentive to get it done. they had a big victory early. but the fact that we're going to be stuck in these budget impasses, and it's going to keep the economy dragging down, i think that's the biggest -- we have already gone over the political cliff here, if you will, with what -- because the deal that happens, if it happens, is temporary. we're going to have the debt ceiling thing in six weeks which is just abominable. >> the president has good leads

now on who carried out the attacks in benghazi. he also touts chuck hagel. he says failure to reach a fiscal deal would hurt the markets. and the president wants gun violence measures passed in 2013, something he said in the course of our interview. we'll take another break here. be back in just a moment. . time for citi price rewind. because your daughter really wants that pink castle thing. and you really don't want to pay more than you have to. only citi price rewind automatically searches for the lowest price. and if it finds one, you get refunded the difference. just use your citi card and register your purchase online. have a super sparkly day! ok. [ male announcer ] now all you need is a magic carriage. citi price rewind. start saving at citi.com/pricerewind.

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